Interview mit Prof. Dissertori und Dr. Dannath

We - the Computer Science Network of Women - previously talked to Kenny Paterson, the head of the computer science department, to learn more about diversity in D-INFK .

Finlay
Let's start directly with the first question: we're both computer science students and part of the Computer Science Network of Women. However, the CSNOW is the only association directly affiliated with any department. Other associations, such as the Limes, phimale or WiNS, are not part of their respective departments. Therefore, why do you think that is the case and whether you believe more departments should do the same?

Dr. Julia Dannath-Schuh
Many of these initiatives belong to the departments. Your initiative belongs to the department and addresses gender diversity, a topic of high importance within departments, albeit approached differently. There are various measures, and your association is supported in this regard in Computer Science. Likewise, other departments support different initiatives. I can't say nothing is happening elsewhere. There are associations there, too, that are organised differently and address diversity. Some may have specific diversity initiatives.

From a central perspective, we don't dictate that such initiatives should be universally adopted or funded equally everywhere. The autonomy of the departments is crucial in implementing goals set from the ground up, such as promoting gender diversity. Thus, it's not our role to mandate actions but rather to acknowledge the Department of Computer Science's understanding of the importance of this issue and its corresponding actions. It's commendable that this is happening in Computer Science.
The degree of emphasis varies among departments. In some, particularly in Europe, the gender diversity situation is dire, but in others, it's better. Therefore, it would be incorrect to apply a one-size-fits-all approach.

Prof. Günther Dissertori
For instance, it's almost the opposite in Biology or Health Sciences.

Marie-Louise
Thank you. Our second question concerns the types of measures that should come from the top, i.e., from ETH, and when measures should be organised by professors. As Dr. Dannath mentioned, there is a certain level of autonomy between the ETH level and individuals. As most readers might know, there are measures, such as the Respect campaign, which are organised at the university level, as well as individual initiatives from departments or single professors. Thus, we wonder, who bears the responsibility?

Dr. Julia Dannath-Schuh
I'll start by addressing the smallest unit and work my way up. Like any other individuals at this university, professors must demonstrate respect in their behaviour, as we expect in our Respect Campaign or what we refer to as our School of Conduct. This is an individual responsibility that cannot be delegated. It's pointless to advocate for diversity and then not act respectfully; it's a matter of behaviour, something each individual can influence.

In the spirit of mutual respect, I expect everyone to ensure a respectful environment around them. This expectation applies to everyone, and I don't want to have to enforce it from the top down or bottom up; it should be individual. Each person brings it with them, including leaders and professors who have a special responsibility. This responsibility includes creating an atmosphere of inclusion and diversity, ensuring that nobody in the group feels treated disrespectfully or discriminated against. It's a significant challenge we all face daily, but it's part of the profession.
At the departmental level, it becomes more strategic. Eventually, we adopt a strategic approach rather than relying solely on operational responsibility. Departments, for instance, need to consider what they can do at the departmental leadership level to attract more female students or increase diversity in faculty. This responsibility lies with the department but also involves coordination with us - the administration - to ensure that such initiatives are implemented. We provide the framework and necessary support, including monitoring, recording, regulations, and support services, which also entails accountability to our stakeholders.
Some aspects are provided by ETH, our owner, and others by the ETH Board as the overarching body. For example, they may set targets for new faculty appointments or gender balance at the leadership level, as is the case for appointments of female professors. Additionally, the federal government, as the owner, imposes specific requirements for discrimination-free interactions.

Finlay
Interesting. As a follow-up, I'd like to talk about the respect campaign. It's one of the programs where ETH is already doing quite a lot, and we were wondering if you'd like to share some insights.

Dr. Julia Dannath-Schuh
The Respect Program is just one aspect. Initially, it was the Respect Campaign, which, in terms of wording, I don't want to say bothered me, but I don't want it to be perceived as a campaign that we push for a while and then move on from. Awareness of the topic is okay, but I like the theme of respect being institutionalised within ETH's structures. That's why it transitioned from being a campaign to a program, offering a sustained approach where there are ongoing engagements with the topic. We continuously provide resources and hope that many people avail themselves of them, which many do.

Another point, as you mentioned in your emails prior, is e-learning that we've offered or addressing biases. I'm currently working on a third one we're planning. Both are critical topics to us, and we want to approach certain groups with high expectations. We aim to promote and make them available to everyone, consistently pushing and ensuring they are integrated into the community. For us, it's crucial not to have peaks where it's active for a while and then fade away entirely, but rather to have institutionalised diversity and gender management where we continuously engage in activities to ensure institutional embedding.

Marie-Louise
On that note, were there initiatives you wanted to implement where you've received pushback?

Dr. Julia Dannath-Schuh
There have been times when we've been the pushback: I've encountered approaches I disagreed with, so I've pushed back, resulting in us reconsidering certain aspects of our approach and deciding, "Hey, let's not do it this way, let's do it differently." I won't deny that this happens and has happened in the past. It will likely continue to occur in the future that we handle things differently than initially intended.

Regarding my inner stance, regarding questions like "Should we make something mandatory?" or "Should we offer choices?" In a perfect world, people would intrinsically take action because they're willing to acknowledge, "Hey, there's an issue, and I'd like to address that because I find it interesting and engaging." That's the ideal scenario.
However, if this isn't the case, simply writing it into people's agendas might suffice. It's worth considering, though, that part of the challenge is cultural acceptance and finding a balance or ambivalence between introducing topics. Some individuals have already resisted some topics and are viewed with suspicion. If we then add a sense of intrusive monitoring, it could lead to internal resistance, hindering openness rather than fostering it. Instead of the desired openness, we might encounter more resistance, spending extensive time discussing the issue of being mandatory and perceived as patronising, treating adults like children, and so forth. Consequently, the focus shifts from "What's the issue and what can we do about it?" to entirely different discussions, losing track of the main objectives.
If I could have it my way, I'd wish for a perfect world where everything aligns seamlessly, but that's not the case. Hence, we seek compromises.

Prof. Günther Dissertori
Another example from a different perspective I'm also more familiar with is the appointments of female professors.

I don't necessarily want to call it pushback. Still, as an example of the system's inertia, sometimes you must push massively and stubbornly to make real progress. For years, it has been demanded and repeatedly stated that there should be a certain percentage of women candidates on the list of invitees and the shortlist that goes to the president. It has been said repeatedly, but it wasn't enforced. Then along comes Joel Mesot as the new president. He stubbornly said he would only accept proposals if specific criteria were met, like having at least one woman, etc. And he stubbornly, brutally enforced it. Only then, over the past few years, has an effect emerged to the point where last year, more women were appointed than men. However, it goes on to show the inertia in the system and how long it takes to change that mindset and fundamentally change the culture.

Dr. Julia Dannath-Schuh
You know what I find funny, Günther? As a physicist, you talk about the inertia of the system, and I, as a psychology person, talk about the inner psychological resistance or something.

Prof. Günther Dissertori
Yes, in the end, it's the same thing. It takes effort and energy to initiate a change in the current state.

Finlay
That brings me to a question directed at you, Professor Dissertori. You bear the enormous responsibility of being the ETH rector and a male staff member. We previously talked to our department head, Kenny Paterson, where it became evident that it's often the women who are approached and asked to give presentations on diversity initiatives. Hence, how do you perceive the role of male members in leadership and among professors in these diversity efforts?

Prof. Günther Dissertori
Julia gave the central answer to the question earlier. Male professors are also supervisors; as such, they bear all the responsibilities she described earlier. We could already stop there; that's precisely it.

However, a specific example where we have tried and are trying to involve men more in leadership roles and support them is the common phenomenon where everything gets delegated again and again. I can go back to the same example of professorship appointments. A few years ago, the so-called Diversity Advocate Package was introduced.
The Diversity Advocate is about having a diverse commission for professorship appointments. Of course, there are representatives from various parties, professors from the department, and student representatives. There are 23 external commission members, for example, from the University of Zurich, EPFL, and elsewhere. At some point, we said we wanted a person on the committee who focuses explicitly on diversity: are female candidates or candidates from minority backgrounds treated differently, asked differently, or judged differently? And afterwards, in the discussion round, are they seen differently than men? The commission falls into the stereotypes, you know?
It seems obvious or at least naive to say, yes, it should be a woman from the commission who takes on that role, but we said, no, it should be a man. Here, a man must regularly take on the responsibility of observing precisely these things. The side effect is that these people also undergo training, so they know what they should pay attention to. Hopefully, this will have an additional positive impact on their activities.
They even have to write a report, which then goes to the president, who reviews it.
I also want to add that men, equally as women, should contribute in terms of responsibility in teaching. Lately, we have been trying to emphasise and be more cautious about stereotypes, such as in language. Men also need to be involved; luckily, it's heading in the right direction. As we mentioned earlier, the fundamental responsibility is to keep this issue on the agenda and to continue developing it.

Marie-Louise
Next, we have a question about the "EQUAL Tools" Guide published in 2020 by the ETH Diversity Commission, which states that multiple-choice questions disadvantage women when negative points are involved. Nevertheless, such questions are still asked in exams, which made us wonder about the gap between what these diversity documents say and what professors actually implement.

Prof. Günther Dissertori
Like before, it's a delicate issue - monitoring versus awareness - that runs deeper within an institution than through a command. For example, I would hesitate to make regulations.

I have received feedback that it's an "infringement on academic freedom" enshrined in the constitution. Some colleagues refer to the constitution to that extent, where academic freedom is indeed preserved. However, we try to increase awareness through other channels. We're currently trying that by recommending, or instead strongly encouraging, everyone who joins us as a professor or receives a permanent appointment to take our didactic courses. In these didactic courses, such topics are also addressed.
Another example, back when I started in the physics department, was the introduction of anonymous grading. It's easy to implement. I've been doing it in my exams for the past few years—grading the written exams anonymously, so you don't see the name. It helps to eliminate bias, though not entirely. Handwriting can still provide some hints, but it is not as straightforward as the name. When you talk about it within a department or when the teaching specialists have also addressed it repeatedly, such practices slowly catch on. However, it requires some patience and regular reminders that these issues exist.

Marie
Our last question relates to sexual harassment and how to deal with it. There are many different offices, help desks and contact points that offer help, but we were curious why there are so many different offerings and why these units couldn't work together more closely and keep in greater touch with the respective departments and leadership.

Dr. Julia Dannath-Schuh
We need to break everything down because it's a challenging topic. The difficulty lies in the fact that we've conducted various surveys and listened to the ETH community. There are so many contact points because the diversity of this school also desires it. People want to know that they have someone to turn to if something happens. Some prefer student representatives, while others prefer a central non-HR-related office. Each department has different needs. When someone has experienced sexual harassment, I want to acknowledge the diversity of needs and cater to them. These diverse points of contact fit everyone differently because they allow for confidentiality. If you say the offices don't cooperate, then the question arises: what does cooperation mean? If a person seeking help wants confidentiality, they won't communicate. There are reasons for that. We have an extensive coordination network where groups discuss cases, but if someone requests confidentiality, they won't communicate. This is the individual's choice. Within help desks, there is always the option to talk to someone and meet with them.

We have also engaged an external law firm to act as a reporting entity. You can make anonymous reports there. Last year, we received 48 submissions from our community. We only ask for descriptions, and no names or accusations are made. We don't trace individuals but discovered that everyone deals with it. This tells us that sexual harassment is an issue among students and doctoral candidates. This unit is anonymous, so we can't pinpoint individuals, but we can see that we need to address sexual harassment among students. We want to understand where the problem lies as a learning organisation; since this happens anonymously, it's not traceable who reported or who is guilty. Therefore, we cannot take individual action based on it.
The system is indeed complex. However, access to a helping person is very straightforward and diverse. No one seeking help is left standing alone.

Finlay
Regarding the Respect Program you mentioned earlier, is there any specific topic you'd like to address where you feel it's not getting enough attention? Or would you like to highlight something at the end of this interview?

Dr. Julia Dannath-Schuh
I want to add something less about the Respect program and more about respect in everyday life, such as how we write emails, treat each other and assume each other's intentions. These small daily interactions can poison a culture or make it difficult. It's more important to focus on these than to make a big fuss and say we need to change something big because culture, from the ground up, is more sustainable.

When I think about diversity, gender is essential to me. At the same time, other issues are close to my heart. These include social mobility, ensuring that children and young people from non-academic backgrounds can come to our university, and how we can bridge the gap between children from academic and non-academic backgrounds, which is widening. We have a vast potential as a society to address this issue.
Another aspect is family-friendliness. We have thought about it for many decades, but we often overlook the issue of care work. It's frequently the case in female biographies that the second comes when the parents need care after the family formation phase with children. It's often the person who has cared for the kids who also cares for the parents - i.e. primarily women. I don't want to trivialise or oversimplify. Still, there's a gap there, and when it comes to family-friendliness and diversity, I would like to address how we can support the issue of care work differently.